McCain the Knife

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franfran
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McCain the Knife

Postby franfran on Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:12 pm

An unprecedented discussion is sweeping the US about how to change direction for the common good. Tens of thousands of union members are knocking on the doors of millions of co-workers and their families to talk about the issues. Women’s, youth and Latino and African American organisations are among those in the forefront of what will probably be the biggest election mobilisation in our history.

The issues are pretty clear. The Bush years and the last three decades of ultra-right corporate rule have been devastating. Ordinary people can’t survive in the present economic climate. Petrol and food prices, foreclosures, layoffs, school closings and out-of-reach health care are all coming down hard on working-class families, with no letup in sight.

A large section of the country has come to understand that their well being is not served by the obscene spending on the Iraq war or the overall policies of the Bush administration.

This is the framework for Bush’s lowest approval ratings in history, and the fact that majorities in Republican congressional districts say they will vote Democratic this year.

This is the framework for the outpouring of voters in the Democratic primaries, and the historic emergence of Barack Obama as the presidential nominee, who together with Hillary Clinton broke down barriers of race and gender.

This election could deliver a landslide victory on November 4 against the ultra-right. A huge turnout of whole communities will give leverage to the mandate for a new set of policies, and create the conditions for continued organising around a labour and people’s agenda post-election.

Fundamental Differences

Bush’s man, John McCain, represents the old, corporate-driven politics of division and fear. Born into an elite military family and married into an elite corporate family, McCain is a vehicle to uphold the racist Southern strategy and policies of world domination.

Obama offers a new politics of unity and inclusion. He draws upon his diverse family background and community-organiser experience. His nomination is a blow against institutional racism. Obama’s 50-state campaign can end decades of Republican control in state after state.

McCain is the candidate of the military industrial complex. Although Obama does not reject the basic tenets of US foreign policy, he does embrace diplomacy while McCain supports the Bush first-strike policy. Obama favours bringing the troops home from Iraq on a short timeline and providing for their needs. McCain is ready to stay in Iraq for 100 years and voted against GI benefits.

The masses of people who oppose the war see this difference and are responding to Obama. African American voters and young voters are playing a special role in this election. Perhaps most important is the wave of people in motion across the length and breadth of our country.

McCain, like all congressional Republicans, tries to distance himself from Bush. He even tries to hijack the mantle of "change" from Obama.

Claiming to represent the "right change going forward", McCain charges Obama with representing the "wrong change going backward".

McCain portrays his program of privatisation, individual solutions, corporate handouts and never-ending war as going forward. He depicts Obama’s program, to uphold the role of government and New Deal programs, and guarantee the health and well-being of the people, as going backward.

The media has helped McCain hide his far-right-wing identity and ties. It is up to union members to alert their sisters and brothers that he opposes workers’ right to organise and would not sign the Employee Free Choice Act into law. It is up to women’s rights advocates to let their neighbours know that McCain has a zero-percent rating on issues of women’s health and would urge the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v Wade.

McCain’s pledge to stay with the Bush economic policies, including even more tax breaks for the super rich and cuts in services for everyone else, is opposite to the crisis needs of the moment.

His support for privatisation of Social Security and his opposition to universal health care are harmful to women, seniors, the disabled, children and the one-out-of-three people who have inadequate or no health coverage.

His support of opening off-shore oil drilling puts oil company profits above the environment and global warming. His support of secret spying undermines basic constitutional rights.

As much as McCain tries to distance himself from Bush, the fact remains that he has the same extremist program and advisors.

Karl Rove, under subpoena for the Justice Department firing of US Attorneys, mapped out McCain’s April biography tour and is producing the electoral maps to guide campaign strategy.

Rove is also guiding Freedom’s Watch, a group led by . magnate Sheldon Adelson, which is raising tens of millions of dollars to elect right-wing Republicans to the House. They are producing ads against the Employee Free Choice Act, as are the "Coalition for a Democratic Workplace" and the "Workforce Freedom Initiative", both connected with the US Chamber of Commerce. These multi-million-dollar campaigns are targeting eight states with competitive Senate races.

In addition to routing the ultra-right from the White House, a larger Democratic and larger pro-labour majority in the Senate and House is critical to turning our country around.

McCain’s biggest support comes from the military industrial complex and the oil industry, the most dangerous wings of the capitalist class. "McCain leads all other senators, and all others who ran for president, in contributions from the oil and gas industry", reports the Wall Street Journal. The total is over $1 million, according to The Center for Responsive Politics. This is just one piece of McCain’s huge corporate fundraising pie.

McCain has to appeal well beyond his right-wing base, which is splintered, and has been losing ground as the crimes and misdemeanours of the past seven years come to the light of day.

He is counting on those who do not know his record, and view him as an independent. He is counting on supporters tied to Wall Street who are concerned more about maintaining their own wealth than the good of the country.

McCain is openly courting Democrats who voted for Hillary Clinton in the primaries, especially Latino, white women and Jewish voters. But these efforts may backfire.

McCain is losing his moderate image in the Latino community. He abandoned his comprehensive immigration reform approach during the Republican primaries in favour of border enforcement and exploitative guest worker programs. Combined with his anti-labour and anti-civil rights record, McCain is becoming known as extreme. A report by the New Democratic Network concludes: "The emergence of a new, highly energised and pro-Democratic Hispanic electorate could have an enormous impact on the 2008 election."

Seventy-eight percent of Latinos who voted in the primaries voted Democrat. The vote for Clinton was not an anti-Obama vote. The Obama campaign hopes to win up to one million more Latino voters and potentially flip New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Florida.

Women voters who chose Clinton in the primaries were also not primarily anti-Obama. June polls showed women supporting Obama over McCain in double digits, although still unaware of McCain’s voting record. Planned Parenthood, Emily’s List and women elected officials are among those leading a massive public education campaign to make it known that McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, and also voted against raising the minimum wage and extending children’s healthcare.

"The depth of Senator McCain’s deceit when it comes to issues important to women can’t be overstated", said Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida.

Jewish voters are being wooed because the situation in the Middle East is an election issue. Prominent support by independent Senator Joe Lieberman for the McCain campaign is geared to getting Jewish votes.

The McCain tactic is to support Israel, label Obama "naive" for his approach on diplomacy with Iran, and benefit from the anti-Muslim hate stirred up by right-wing groups against Obama.

Older Jewish voters are not likely to support McCain when they learn he supports privatisation of Social Security. As a significant voting bloc in Florida, they could help flip that state from red to blue[Republican to Democrat].

Politics of Racism, Division and Fear

A sharp rise in white supremacist hate groups has been reported since Obama became the presumptive Democratic nominee. Along with the bourgeois media, these groups are spewing forth all kinds of lies and distortions against Barack and Michelle Obama.

It is expected that Republican-inspired "527" groups will launch provocative ads to stir up racism against Obama similar to the "swift boat" ads that used fear of terrorism against presidential candidate John Kerry in 2004.

The beneficiary of this racist hate is John McCain.

The lie that white people and white workers will not vote for Obama is meant to divide the movement and depress the vote. This ignores Iowa, Wisconsin and many other states with predominantly white populations that Obama carried, the historic rally of 75,000 in Oregon, and the large number of votes Obama received from voters of all backgrounds in states which Clinton carried.

The media is playing up the idea of a racial and class divide in the vote between Obama and Clinton. The purpose is to scare people away. Recent elections show, however, that voters are more concerned about jobs and healthcare and the war than about divisive wedge issues.

The labour movement will be decisive for building unity. As one Ohio labour leader said, "Now is the time to unite.... If your members have a problem with racial bias, tell them to get over it for all time, but especially now for this election. We must put Barack Obama in the White House and, if we don’t, we are in deep trouble."

Building the Landslide

This monumental election battle has the potential to overturn three decades of assaults on working people. It could shape the future of the country for decades. A landslide vote is needed to deliver a strong enough blow to the ultra-right, with a strong enough mandate for change. It could open up the possibility for a strengthened labour and people’s movement to win a far-reaching program to change priorities.

The Communist Party offers some good ideas in its program to repair, renew and rebuild our country, to be carried out with funds now spent on the Iraq war, the military budget, and tax breaks for the super rich. The program includes immediate relief to those in crisis, a peacetime green jobs economic program for all, including massive public works job creation, passage of HR 676 (the US National Health Insurance Act for universal single-payer healthcare), passage of the Employee Free Choice Act, restoration and expansion of civil rights enforcement, a new foreign and military policy based on diplomacy and respect for all nations, and prosecution of Bush administration violations of the Constitution.

Everyone has a role to play in this historic election campaign. The grass roots organising approach of the Obama campaign, and the efforts of labour and people’s organisations to put many thousands of people on the streets talking to their neighbours, family, friends and co-workers, are all geared to realising the landslide for the White House and Congress.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:27 pm

Wow . . .

Did you write all that?

You must be so smart.

You know so much about the United States.

Which state are you from?

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Fred75
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Re: McCain the Knife

Postby Fred75 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:59 pm

franfran wrote:
An unprecedented discussion is sweeping the US about how to change direction for the common good. Tens of thousands of union members are knocking on the doors of millions of co-workers and their families to talk about the issues. Women’s, youth and Latino and African American organisations are among those in the forefront of what will probably be the biggest election mobilisation in our history.

The issues are pretty clear. The Bush years and the last three decades of ultra-right corporate rule have been devastating. Ordinary people can’t survive in the present economic climate. Petrol and food prices, foreclosures, layoffs, school closings and out-of-reach health care are all coming down hard on working-class families, with no letup in sight.
So how is Obama going to change that with higher taxes to cover all his social reforms?

A large section of the country has come to understand that their well being is not served by the obscene spending on the Iraq war or the overall policies of the Bush administration.

This is the framework for Bush’s lowest approval ratings in history, and the fact that majorities in Republican congressional districts say they will vote Democratic this year.

This is the framework for the outpouring of voters in the Democratic primaries, and the historic emergence of Barack Obama as the presidential nominee, who together with Hillary Clinton broke down barriers of race and gender.

This election could deliver a landslide victory on November 4 against the ultra-right. A huge turnout of whole communities will give leverage to the mandate for a new set of policies, and create the conditions for continued organising around a labour and people’s agenda post-election.

Fundamental Differences

Bush’s man, John McCain, represents the old, corporate-driven politics of division and fear. Born into an elite military family and married into an elite corporate family, McCain is a vehicle to uphold the racist Southern strategy and policies of world domination.

Obama offers a new politics of unity and inclusion.
Just WTF does that mean he's gong to do?
That's not a solution.
It's commercial for "charisma".

He draws upon his diverse family background and community-organiser experience. His nomination is a blow against institutional racism. Obama’s 50-state campaign can end decades of Republican control in state after state.

McCain is the candidate of the military industrial complex. Although Obama does not reject the basic tenets of US foreign policy, he does embrace diplomacy while McCain supports the Bush first-strike policy. Obama favours bringing the troops home from Iraq on a short timeline and providing for their needs. McCain is ready to stay in Iraq for 100 years
It's called being RESPONSIBLE for helping those out.
And NO ONE and I mean NO ONE wants to stay there forever.
What a load of S*** that statement is!


and voted against GI benefits.

The masses of people who oppose the war see this difference and are responding to Obama. African American voters and young voters are playing a special role in this election.
Of course they are.
One half never finished high school and the other just did.
Neither have a F****** clue!


Perhaps most important is the wave of people in motion across the length and breadth of our country.

McCain, like all congressional Republicans, tries to distance himself from Bush. He even tries to hijack the mantle of "change" from Obama.

Claiming to represent the "right change going forward", McCain charges Obama with representing the "wrong change going backward".

McCain portrays his program of privatisation, individual solutions, corporate handouts and never-ending war as going forward. He depicts Obama’s program, to uphold the role of government and New Deal programs, and guarantee the health and well-being of the people, as going backward.
Of course it's going backwards.
I moved out of my parents house to show that i was an adult capable of taking care of myself.
How is being put under the governments wing any different than moving back in with my momma?


The media has helped McCain hide his far-right-wing identity and ties. It is up to union members to alert their sisters and brothers that he opposes workers’ right to organise and would not sign the Employee Free Choice Act into law. It is up to women’s rights advocates to let their neighbours know that McCain has a zero-percent rating on issues of women’s health and would urge the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v Wade.
What about the childs health?
Does it have to get executed because the mother spread her legs without thinking of the consequences?


McCain’s pledge to stay with the Bush economic policies, including even more tax breaks for the super rich and cuts in services for everyone else, is opposite to the crisis needs of the moment.
Well then... at least the LEFT can agree that governments rights to spy on it's citizens was appropriate for the time!

His support for privatisation of Social Security and his opposition to universal health care are harmful to women, seniors, the disabled, children and the one-out-of-three people who have inadequate or no health coverage.
So the white man is sexist, ageist and a downright scoundrel for not wanting to support EVERYONE ELSE?
Why the hell didn't you include the minorities there too while you were at it?


His support of opening off-shore oil drilling puts oil company profits above the environment and global warming.
So you like $4+ a gallon of gas?
His support of secret spying undermines basic constitutional rights.
I thought you just said that we needed to do whatever it takes for the crisis at hand?

As much as McCain tries to distance himself from Bush, the fact remains that he has the same extremist program and advisors.

Karl Rove, under subpoena for the Justice Department firing of US Attorneys, mapped out McCain’s April biography tour and is producing the electoral maps to guide campaign strategy.

Rove is also guiding Freedom’s Watch, a group led by . magnate Sheldon Adelson, which is raising tens of millions of dollars to elect right-wing Republicans to the House. They are producing ads against the Employee Free Choice Act, as are the "Coalition for a Democratic Workplace" and the "Workforce Freedom Initiative", both connected with the US Chamber of Commerce. These multi-million-dollar campaigns are targeting eight states with competitive Senate races.

In addition to routing the ultra-right from the White House, a larger Democratic and larger pro-labour majority in the Senate and House is critical to turning our country around.

McCain’s biggest support comes from the military industrial complex and the oil industry, the most dangerous wings of the capitalist class. "McCain leads all other senators, and all others who ran for president, in contributions from the oil and gas industry", reports the Wall Street Journal. The total is over $1 million, according to The Center for Responsive Politics. This is just one piece of McCain’s huge corporate fundraising pie.

McCain has to appeal well beyond his right-wing base, which is splintered, and has been losing ground as the crimes and misdemeanours of the past seven years come to the light of day.

He is counting on those who do not know his record, and view him as an independent. He is counting on supporters tied to Wall Street who are concerned more about maintaining their own wealth than the good of the country.

McCain is openly courting Democrats who voted for Hillary Clinton in the primaries, especially Latino, white women and Jewish voters. But these efforts may backfire.

McCain is losing his moderate image in the Latino community. He abandoned his comprehensive immigration reform approach during the Republican primaries in favour of border enforcement and exploitative guest worker programs. Combined with his anti-labour and anti-civil rights record, McCain is becoming known as extreme. A report by the New Democratic Network concludes: "The emergence of a new, highly energised and pro-Democratic Hispanic electorate could have an enormous impact on the 2008 election."

Seventy-eight percent of Latinos who voted in the primaries voted Democrat. The vote for Clinton was not an anti-Obama vote. The Obama campaign hopes to win up to one million more Latino voters and potentially flip New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Florida.

Women voters who chose Clinton in the primaries were also not primarily anti-Obama. June polls showed women supporting Obama over McCain in double digits, although still unaware of McCain’s voting record. Planned Parenthood, Emily’s List and women elected officials are among those leading a massive public education campaign to make it known that McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, and also voted against raising the minimum wage and extending children’s healthcare.

"The depth of Senator McCain’s deceit when it comes to issues important to women can’t be overstated", said Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida.

Jewish voters are being wooed because the situation in the Middle East is an election issue. Prominent support by independent Senator Joe Lieberman for the McCain campaign is geared to getting Jewish votes.

The McCain tactic is to support Israel, label Obama "naive" for his approach on diplomacy with Iran, and benefit from the anti-Muslim hate stirred up by right-wing groups against Obama.

Older Jewish voters are not likely to support McCain when they learn he supports privatisation of Social Security. As a significant voting bloc in Florida, they could help flip that state from red to blue[Republican to Democrat].

Politics of Racism, Division and Fear

A sharp rise in white supremacist hate groups has been reported since Obama became the presumptive Democratic nominee. Along with the bourgeois media, these groups are spewing forth all kinds of lies and distortions against Barack and Michelle Obama.

It is expected that Republican-inspired "527" groups will launch provocative ads to stir up racism against Obama similar to the "swift boat" ads that used fear of terrorism against presidential candidate John Kerry in 2004.

The beneficiary of this racist hate is John McCain.

The lie that white people and white workers will not vote for Obama is meant to divide the movement and depress the vote. This ignores Iowa, Wisconsin and many other states with predominantly white populations that Obama carried, the historic rally of 75,000 in Oregon, and the large number of votes Obama received from voters of all backgrounds in states which Clinton carried.

The media is playing up the idea of a racial and class divide in the vote between Obama and Clinton. The purpose is to scare people away. Recent elections show, however, that voters are more concerned about jobs and healthcare and the war than about divisive wedge issues.

The labour movement will be decisive for building unity. As one Ohio labour leader said, "Now is the time to unite.... If your members have a problem with racial bias, tell them to get over it for all time, but especially now for this election. We must put Barack Obama in the White House and, if we don’t, we are in deep trouble."

Building the Landslide

This monumental election battle has the potential to overturn three decades of assaults on working people. It could shape the future of the country for decades. A landslide vote is needed to deliver a strong enough blow to the ultra-right, with a strong enough mandate for change. It could open up the possibility for a strengthened labour and people’s movement to win a far-reaching program to change priorities.

The Communist Party offers some good ideas in its program to repair, renew and rebuild our country, to be carried out with funds now spent on the Iraq war, the military budget, and tax breaks for the super rich. The program includes immediate relief to those in crisis, a peacetime green jobs economic program for all, including massive public works job creation, passage of HR 676 (the US National Health Insurance Act for universal single-payer healthcare), passage of the Employee Free Choice Act, restoration and expansion of civil rights enforcement, a new foreign and military policy based on diplomacy and respect for all nations, and prosecution of Bush administration violations of the Constitution.

Everyone has a role to play in this historic election campaign. The grass roots organising approach of the Obama campaign, and the efforts of labour and people’s organisations to put many thousands of people on the streets talking to their neighbours, family, friends and co-workers, are all geared to realising the landslide for the White House and Congress.
"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded." Obama.

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Postby franfran on Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:16 pm

myron myron wrote:Wow . . .

Did you write all that?

You must be so smart.

You know so much about the United States.

Which state are you from?


It's an article I came across and I did show in my post that it was a quote. You do know what the word quote means don't you?

I don't agree with everything in it, but I did think that the points raised might make for some interesting discussion. And so far it has elicited one intelligent comment - from Fred.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:44 pm

When quoting a writing authored by someone else, it is proper to identify the author and the publication and, if possible, to provide a link to the writing if found on the internet.

This accords the author due credit for the writing.

It also permits readers to verify the quote's accuracy and, if they so wish, to read other writings by that author.

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Postby franfran on Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:34 am

myron myron wrote:When quoting a writing authored by someone else, it is proper to identify the author and the publication and, if possible, to provide a link to the writing if found on the internet.

This accords the author due credit for the writing.

It also permits readers to verify the quote's accuracy and, if they so wish, to read other writings by that author.


An oversight by me I admit. I was feeling rather tired at the time I posted that and obviously made an error of judgement. Thank you for politely pointing it out. Actually I couldn't recall where I came across the article, so I did a search for it and it appears in a number of websites, one of which is politicalaffairs.net http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/7161/1/345/

The author of the piece is Joelle Fishman, who chairs the Political Action Commission of the Communist Party USA.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:11 am

franfran wrote:
myron myron wrote:When quoting a writing authored by someone else, it is proper to identify the author and the publication and, if possible, to provide a link to the writing if found on the internet.

This accords the author due credit for the writing.

It also permits readers to verify the quote's accuracy and, if they so wish, to read other writings by that author.


An oversight by me I admit. I was feeling rather tired at the time I posted that and obviously made an error of judgement. Thank you for politely pointing it out. Actually I couldn't recall where I came across the article, so I did a search for it and it appears in a number of websites, one of which is politicalaffairs.net http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/7161/1/345/

The author of the piece is Joelle Fishman, who chairs the Political Action Commission of the Communist Party USA.


I trust you will agree that what I marked in red is relevant.

I am not saying that the author's Communist politics per se invalidate the opinions espoused in the opening post.

Opinions are properly assessed on their merits by analysis of the supporting facts (after verifying same) and the logical reasoning applying those facts without regard to the political or other motivations of the person espousing the opinions.

Indeed, it is a logical fallacy to contend that an argument is per se invalid owing solely to the motivation or bias of the person making the argument, whether that person is liberal or conservative, communist or ..

But the author's Communist political beliefs are relevant in providing a proper context for understanding the opinions in the opening post.

And what you chose as opening posts for this and other threads that you started do reflect your biases.

I openly admit that I am an American conservative Republican.

May I ask if you are an anti-American Communist?


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Postby Cambridge on Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:59 am

Or, maybe she'd like to describe herself without being force-fed your categories.

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Postby Bushwalker on Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:37 am

:lol:

Yeh, but according to myron, a lot of Aussies and Kiwis are communist buttwipes !!!

myronmyron wrote:
(From: the 'George Bush on Respecting Other Countries' thread..)
Some might say it is because an inordinately large number of Aussies and Kiwis (though not all) are buttwipes best-suited to "clean up [America's] messes" -- like dung beetles, finding nourishment from S*** -- who should be grateful to America for validating their existence and giving their lives meaning.

Some might say that . . .


:?

myronmyron wrote: (To franfran:) May I ask if you are an anti-American Communist?


:evil:
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Postby myron myron on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:50 am

Bushwalker wrote::lol:
Yeh, but according to myron, a lot of Aussies and Kiwis are communist buttwipes !!!

myronmyron wrote:
(From: the 'George Bush on Respecting Other Countries' thread..)
Some might say it is because an inordinately large number of Aussies and Kiwis (though not all) are buttwipes best-suited to "clean up [America's] messes" -- like dung beetles, finding nourishment from S*** -- who should be grateful to America for validating their existence and giving their lives meaning.

Some might say that . . .

:?

myronmyron wrote: (To franfran:) May I ask if you are an anti-American Communist?


:evil:

You don't quote your insulting post about America to which I was responding with my comment about buttwipes.

How predictably dishonest and slimy of you.

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Postby Cambridge on Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:08 am

myron myron wrote:
Bushwalker wrote::lol:
Yeh, but according to myron, a lot of Aussies and Kiwis are communist buttwipes !!!

myronmyron wrote:
(From: the 'George Bush on Respecting Other Countries' thread..)
Some might say it is because an inordinately large number of Aussies and Kiwis (though not all) are buttwipes best-suited to "clean up [America's] messes" -- like dung beetles, finding nourishment from S*** -- who should be grateful to America for validating their existence and giving their lives meaning.

Some might say that . . .

:?

myronmyron wrote: (To franfran:) May I ask if you are an anti-American Communist?


:evil:

You don't quote your insulting post about America to which I was responding with my comment about buttwipes.

How predictably dishonest and slimy of you.


Hmmm... Seems like this is a trick I've seen you do a time or two, eh? :D

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Postby Bushwalker on Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 am

8)

Considering there wasn't a single lie in the quote moronmoron is whinging about above (maybe an exaggeration or two - maybe they were only a year or so late into WW1 ?), I do have to ask what grounds he has to call me dishonest?

Claiming to be a lawyer as he does, you should think he would know better than to continually make so many false claims and accusations about other members on here.. :lol:

And everybody will note that I gave the thread's name on that quote, so that the reader can check it for themselves.. :?

These Repub's can be precious little princesses, can't they?

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Postby franfran on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:36 am

myron myron wrote:May I ask if you are an anti-American Communist?


Myron, before I answer your question, allow me to make a few comments in general about your various posts in the forum. Some of them are clearly thought out, well presented arguments in a rather dispassionate tone. Some are less so. Then there are others where you launch into a tirade of abuse and name calling and occasionally make comments that make me wonder if you have some sort of scat fetish. I'm not sure what you are trying to get in the way of an answer here, nor am I certain to which of the two Myrons I am replying.

You have used the terms "anti-American" and "Communist" and it appears to me that you want a simple yes or no answer à la Fred, but as these terms have various shades of meaning and I don't know exactly which you are intending, I cannot say either yes or no.

To take "anti-American" first, you could mean a person who is opposed to the United States and its policies, or not being a loyal American, or being un-American (a rather nebulous term). The term anti-American is loaded in such a way to be more of a propaganda tool than anything else. I might oppose America's policies and actions, but I do not dislike or wish harm on anyone simply because they are American. Rather than being anti-American, I am anti-Bush, and you cannot from that state that I am anti-American, as I am anti-Howard (and anti-Blair) for the same reasons, and I assure you that I am not anti-Australian. Being un-American suggests that one is not patriotic, and patriotism should not be an issue as far as I am concerned, as I'm not American. Also, I would make the point that I am not bigoted or prejudiced against specific ethnic or national groups, be they American or otherwise.

And what is your definition of Communist? Is is it a follower of Communism, in particular the philosophy of Karl Marx and his adherents, is it a socialist who advocates communism, or do you consider a Communist to be one who actively supports the interests of the working class as a whole? Perhaps you mean it in a narrower sense: a member of the Communist Party. I am not a member of any political party, nor do I think I ever will be, as in joining a party you put yourself in a position where you have to toe the party line on all issues, and this is something I cannot do. I do not consider myself to be a revolutionary or subversive radical; nor am I member of any Marxist-Leninist group. I do not see the establishment of a classless, stateless society with common ownership of means of production as a realistic aim. Does this mean I am not a Communist? Or by Communist do you mean a person who believes the philosophy of Communism. If this is what you mean, then maybe I am a Communist, but I would not think of myself as such: Socialist yes, but Communist, no.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

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Bushwalker
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Postby Bushwalker on Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:42 pm

:lol:

Now we just have to wait and see if "Bomber" Benny will be in here next wanting to nuke Sydney as a commie hideout... :lol:

As Ben imagines that anyone to the left of Ghengis Khan is a extreme radical commie lefty conspiracy in the making, it will be interesting to see how he labels you, franfran .. :P

(I actually thought Big Ben might have been a Uni' student, at one time, but seeing in one of his last posts before I blocked him, that the silly git can't even manage to spell Pakistan or Iraq - I have to wonder whether he even graduated high school !!!) :twisted:
"Bushwalker": "You can take the boy out of the bush, but you can't take the bush out of the boy..".
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Postby Big Ben on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:11 am

Bushwalker wrote::lol:

Now we just have to wait and see if "Bomber" Benny will be in here next wanting to nuke Sydney as a commie hideout... :lol:

As Ben imagines that anyone to the left of Ghengis Khan is a extreme radical commie lefty conspiracy in the making, it will be interesting to see how he labels you, franfran .. :P

(I actually thought Big Ben might have been a Uni' student, at one time, but seeing in one of his last posts before I blocked him, that the silly git can't even manage to spell Pakistan or Iraq - I have to wonder whether he even graduated high school !!!) :twisted:


Yet another unprovoked, cheap-shot attack from the forum's hit and run poster, bushwalker. I haven't even posted in this thread and have never spoken with Fran. And I don't compare people to Ghengis Khan.

Unprincipled? Check.
Liar? Check.

myron called you an unprincipled liar. You are just proven him to be right! :P

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